Episode 134: How to Be Consciously Profitable with Wendy Dickinson (Transcript)
Speaker: Lauren LeMunyan 00:01
What's going on guys? Welcome back to another episode of the Spitfire podcast. I'm your host Lauren LeMunyan and the Spitfire Coach, here with another awesome episode to help you on your journey to emerging your Spitfire power. Today I'm talking to Wendy Dickinson, a fellow coach. She has a company called Ascend Coaching Solutions.
She works with small and midsize businesses and helping them find their inner power, their inner efficiency, becoming their best selves and their business. And in fact, we got so wrapped in our pre-conversation interview that I just started recording and we went right into this. So I'm going to just turn it over to Wendy because we're talking about mergers, acquisitions, psychological safety, diversity, equity inclusion, and a brand new webinar that the two of us are putting together on April 12. Check it out, it's going to be awesome, consciouslyprofitable.com but without further ado, Wendy, take it away.
Speaker: Wendy Dickinson 00:59
You know, for me, I work so often with business owners, right and those are small to medium size companies. And so that means that they can have very few employees, but they can have a big impact or it can be somebody who has, you know, a fairly decent number, you know, 75, 100, couple 100 people. And one of the Senate bills that's up for consideration right now that was introduced by Senator Amy Klobuchar has to do, it has four different points to it, but to caught my interest. And Lauren, I think it's going, if this bill goes through, and I'm sure it's going to change, it doesn't currently have a house companion bill yet and it's, like I said, it's up for markup. But there are two pieces of it that are super interesting, I think for companies.
Number one, it's an antitrust bill. And so it is looking at some of the big tech companies, recent and I'm talking about the last 10 years, recent tendency to kind of swoop in and grab some sort of intellectual property that can hugely impact the industry before anybody else has a chance. So there's that. And then the second thing is that prior to this bill, if a company was valued and the purchase price was 94 million or above, then the government and in this case, again, you know, antitrust would have to prove that the company was not going to constitute a monopoly through this acquisition. And the reason that's so impactful is because for all of those tech startups that you and I talked to, those companies that are in that small to medium, but we know that they're growing, we know that their technology, their intellectual property is going to have a big impact on the world, then it's going to radically impact how those owner founders exit their business. So will they be able to do that in a way that is… Oh and I'm sorry, it's going from 94 million to 50 million. That's huge. And the onus of proof is no longer going to be on the government to disprove or prove monopoly, it's going to be on the acquirer. So increased legal spend, obviously. And I think it's going to probably limit some of the startups ability to leverage that company into an exit that's profitable for not only themselves, but also their investors and shareholders. And so that I think can have a huge impact on how things go forward.
And then second of all, if companies are going to do this process, are going to be bought and sold, well, 75% of inner integrations are considered a failure, three comes out. People don't do it well. And that brings me back to three questions that I read about this morning that we should all consider in transitions. And those three questions, and I'm going to read them because I don't want to misspeak them. And this is an article in HBr. Three Tools To Help Leaders Steady Their Teams During A Transition. Well, so you ask these three questions, where can I give my employees choice? How can I instill purpose into everyday activities? And then third, what new objects, innovations or technologies can serve as a bridge to where we're headed?
And not only is that relevant for this time of COVID, and you know, transitioning back to some sort of future work but it also has a huge impact on companies within that mergers and acquisition space. And I think it's the key as to why companies don't integrate successfully. And what the article and the woman that wrote this is Victoria Grady, and she's a professor and she goes on to say that it's transitional objects. And I don't necessarily mean like a security blanket, but it could be.
One healthcare company that she worked with was having a really difficult time. They were doing a lot of restructuring because their costs had escalated, they were trying to increase their shareholder returns. And so they actually gave everyone an orange frog and said, Okay, look for the orange frogs, the bright spots, the positives in the midst of every day. Which makes sense because who wants to dedicate every day all day to things that are really heartbreaking as so often the restructuring is. And then the other piece of it is that a lot of times we're asking people to do things differently with different people and we don't give them those transitional objects.
And you know, Lauren, now I'm getting to what our upcoming webinars about. How to create teams of psychological safety. Because what we're asking people to do, in the midst of the pandemic, and for many people in the midst of personal crisis but also changes like companies being bought and sold, and in some cases closed, we're also asking people to be in this messy, racial reckoning that we're going through. And of course, it's not only racial. It's also cultural, its mobility, its age, it's any kind of bias that we bring to the table when we're relating with other people.
And how can we give people a choice about how to show up? How can we give people purpose in doing that? And then what can we offer them as far as the new objects that will help them, and again, not just an orange frog, but habits that will help them not show up in the midst of these changes? And of course, you can see that I am white, super white. And so how can I not show up as a carrot? Right? How can I show up when my whole world is topsy turvy, may be at home, certainly at the office, and then also show up with my brothers and sisters of color, of culture, of abilities, in a way where I can be authentic, but I can as a leader, call forth their best?
Speaker: Lauren LeMunyan 08:29
Wow. You know, it's funny, I just need to capture this because we've been recording and this was like the pre-interview, but we're just gonna roll with this and because this is so awesome. We didn't even do an introduction because we're just gonna go. But I think it's so interesting. It's like, how do individuals feel psychologically safe when they're in crisis, when they're in constant change in this me, me, me focus and how do they convert it into a we centered approach? And maybe that is, at the heart of it of like, how do we take that M and flip it to a W? Which is so funny, because you can't spell Wendy without we?
Speaker: Wendy Dickinson 09:12
Oh, I love that Lauren. You’re right. Hey, you know what occurs to me as you say that though, is we have to start with me. We have to have as a leader, leadership of self. And to me leadership of self is creating, embracing a growth mindset. It is expanding my awareness so not only aware of my gifts and skills, but aware of my blind spots, my knowledge gaps, my beliefs, my assumptions. All of those things are part of the me. And it's also recognizing when I'm at my limits. Right? Where I don't have energy or bandwidth to give or when I'm in that kind of negative self-taught place, which we all can do at times. And then leadership, when I have all that, then I can step into that We of leadership of others. I've got to start with the me. I've got to start with what I bring to the table and really know what that is. Not just what I would ideally like for it to be, you know.
Speaker: Lauren LeMunyan 10:23
Yeah. So it's really interesting. Like, I'm envisioning kind of this me cup of like, you know, people are flipping it and trying to focus on other people. So it's not even like a comprehensive organizational view but it's really like, how do I serve other people but if their cup isn't full, they don't have the ability, the sustainability to be of service. And I just want to back it up a little bit because I know as coaches we have our own language, which unless you are like in this world or like reading books that have this terminology, like blind spots and gaps, limiting beliefs of like, what does that look like? How does that show up on an everyday basis?
Speaker: Wendy Dickinson 11:04
I'll give you an example. And this is going to sound like a strange one but it struck me. A lot of times, blind spots of course are things that we don't see about ourselves and we don't see how we're contributing to a problem. So I'm going to use a very nuts and bolts, real impact. I'm working with a company right now, it's a family business. And one of the members of the family brought to my attention a habit that another member of the family has. And what this person does is every time he loses a tool and apparently it happens pretty often, that, and this is a company that does a lot of property management types of tasks, right. So every time he loses a tool, he takes money out of petty cash and goes and buys another one.
So one of the things that they're doing is they're taking a look at creating some sort of system and process which today they haven't had. And this is a third generation company. And so they've never had a system for accounting for petty cash. They keep a certain amount of petty cash and when it's gone, they just put that same amount back in again. Right?
And this business, unlike a lot of others, it's very much a cash based business. And so that for them is not a problem. However, it is a problem on the long term viability of the company. Not to mention who needs 15 or 20 wrenches and screwdrivers that are the exact same size. No, they don't. And so it's wasteful. And that's an example of somebody who because it was always done that way, because it's something that they have done for 30 years, that is something they saw the generation before them do, and it never occurred because it was not directly impacting that person, it was easier.
And I feel like that's a great example because it's easy to see how it's impacting their petty cash, it's impacting their cash flow in general. What I think this also applies to, and again, I'm being conscious of our verbiage as coaches is when we show up and we engage in the same behaviors we've engaged in all the time, and not realizing how our words or actions might impact someone else.
So I have had the opportunity to speak with some people who are women of color who work in international organization, large company that happens to have an office here in my area. And so these women described to me how they have had the experience of where they are sitting at a table in the lunch area and someone that they don't know comes in and says basically asked where is the supervisor of such and such place? They were told they were in the lunchroom, but obviously they're not. And they were because one of those women was that person. But the other person just looked at the two women and made the assumption that neither of them were the person that we're looking for.
Speaker: Lauren LeMunyan 14:30
Yeah, so it becomes kind of this embedded, like institutionalized thinking that it's always been done that way, you know, my idea of what his supervisor looks like is a white, older male that has a certain presence about them. And so it's not even that people are conscious of it and that's why this unconscious bias is so powerful and it's so hard to unpack. So I'm curious like if you're, let's imagine his name is George walking into the lunch room, he gets exposed as his bias comes to the surface, and then what typically happens?
Speaker: Wendy Dickinson 15:09
So in this situation, I will also add that he had the title, he was looking for safety officer. And I'm just gonna say Smith. And so safety officer Smith doesn't indicate whether Safe Officer Smith is anything other than a person. Right? And so for this woman who is my acquaintance, my friend, she feels very comfortable sharing these experiences with her boss.
Now, what doesn't happen is that the boss seldom takes it any farther. He's not comfortable because he's a white guy. He's very much like the George that you described. So what I take away from that, and she and I have talked about this. What we take away from that is that, number one, he doesn't know what to do with it. And he is unsure in his own beliefs, behaviors, blind spots, knowledge gaps, he's not always sure himself, how to show up in those situations.
And so what she has done several times has then gone beyond him. And so then that person has been, I will say, better equipped, and certainly more prepared to then circle back with my friend’s supervisor and engage in a conversation with the three of them about this person's behavior. So I think that there are inroads, but I want to point out something that I don't think is always obvious, especially to people like me, who are white and middle aged is I am asking or in those situations, my friend is having to step over her own supervisor’s head, which is risky. She's then having to explain to that person and to her supervisor and then having yet another conversation with all three of them and at times, they pulled in a fourth or a fifth person, where she's having to explain yet again.
So we're asking someone who has been and we could use a lot of different terminology. I'm just going to say, victim, who's been the victim in this situation or who has to carry the burden maybe. Might be more palatable. Burden of the explanation time and again. So she gets to relive this at least twice if not, three, four, and five times.
Speaker: Lauren LeMunyan 18:12
Yeah. And there's this separation, if you are the minority in the group that you're reporting to, it's exacerbating. Like, it's exhausting emotionally. The emotional labor that is required in order to have your voice heard, you have to speak that much louder. And it's not always landing on open and safe spaces. You're going to hear excuses, potentially. You're going to hear a lot of well, he didn't really mean it or he was just confused. What comes up for me is around sexual harassment and he thought y'all were just friends.
So this happens because we have a system that protects the bottom line. We have HR which is supposed to be a human resource but they have become a profit resource. How do we protect the bottom line? And I don't know if you're seeing this too, but I mean, it's kind of hard to ignore it in in the press of now companies are being exposed where there have been cover ups, where there have been silenced practices, where don't speak up, it's not that big of a deal or that people get sidelined in their own career trajectory. I'm getting a little like, my spitfire’s coming out on this because like, it's definitely hitting a nerve.
Speaker: Wendy Dickinson 19:36
Yeah because we care. And I will say that one of the things that I find really interesting right now and I agree with you the general opinion is that these systems have evolved to protect the bottom line, to protect profitability, to create sustainability within a company. I'm going to say though, that the research is beginning to show and I'm beginning to see that actually, with the companies where people are willing to create these psychologically safe teams, and when I say team, I'm not talking about a small group of people within an organization. I'm talking about making everybody within the organization part of the team. And so when companies are willing to take the time to get into these messy conversations, to be real with each other in a safe, safe way, I think, I believe that is the true path to profitability. That is the true path to sustainability.
Speaker: Lauren LeMunyan 20:43
Yes. Which is such a great segue for our project that we are teaming up on. Why don't you talk a little bit about that?
Speaker: Wendy Dickinson 20:51
Well, you and I are both very passionate about helping our clients become the people they were created to be. Right? The people, the leaders they are capable of being. And helping them increase their capacities and capabilities and to prosper, to be profitable. And you and I were talking and working together on this webinar, putting together our experiences and we happened on this concept of being consciously profitable. And that's what I feel like is the best terminology to explain where I believe we as a society are capable of going.
I believe the business landscape will be greatly improved, sustainable, more sustainable, more profitable, by being consciously profitable. And that means creating a psychologically safe team.
Speaker: Lauren Lemunyan 21:50
Amazing. That was so beautifully put. An we have, we've created this webinar as kind of the introduction to it of, you know, what are the pillars of psychological safety? Because it is a big topic. I mean, I remember reading about it maybe a year ago, when it started really cropping up around the pandemic and around, you know, racial justice and social justice issues. And I was sending it to my clients, and we're like, where can I learn more about this? How do I work through this? Because it was not readily accessible. And to even acknowledge, well, what happens if I'm not creating psychologically safe spaces? Like, am I part of the problem? And this is where the Karen's and the Todd's you know, am I inadvertently doing this? And how do I stop this?
Speaker: Wendy Dickinson 22:36
Yeah, you know, I think that, we don't have a great way for how to accumulate information that we feel is accurate and comfortable. And so I wish I had a magic wand for that, I don't. But what I will tell you’re your listeners Lauren, is that Dr. Timothy Clark has written a book, The Four Stages Of Psychological safety. He's done a lot of research on this particular topic, you can take a look at his research, you can take a look at his methodology.
And his research is an accurate reflection of what I have seen not only through my career in mental health, but also in my career as a business coach of where when people feel psychologically safe, they are able to show up and include others, include a diversity of perspective. And he goes on to say that inclusion unlocks the power of diversity. And that's where I think we get back to being consciously profitable. Because that allows each person at the table to contribute to the solution, to the product, to the service. And that then allows the company to become more profitable.
Speaker: Lauren LeMunyan 24:02
Absolutely, absolutely. It is really the best asset that companies have is their employees and allowing them to show up as their whole self with all of the things that you didn't see before, all of their experiences because they represent your customer. They represent the world at large. And the show before this, we were talking about de-niching yourself.
Like businesses are niching themselves with their clientele or with their leadership and only having one or two perspectives. And so this opens up this whole different ballgame of like, what other opportunities are right underneath our nose? How do we allow people to shine and be their best? How do we really let them play in this creation and collaboration?
Speaker: Wendy Dickinson 24:53
Yeah. So I feel like your point is exactly where the profitability and the sustainability are falling short. When companies are so niched, that they are cutting themselves off from entire segments of the marketplace, they are really locking down their ability to grow, their ability to prosper. And so by including a diverse group of people and serving a diverse group of clients and customers, then you unlock your potential for growth and sustainability.
And it just kills me, the way that, so for example, have you heard about the lip bar?
Speaker: Lauren LeMunyan 25:50
No.
Speaker: Wendy Dickinson 25:52
Okay, there's a woman and her name escapes me right now but there's a company called the lip bar and this woman was someone, she's a black woman. And she was working and I want to say she was like at one of the big banks as an analyst. And from Detroit, first person in her family to go to college, goes there, is really unhappy in the work but feels like she's locked in. And one of the things she loved to do was make stuff. Like she got into making soap. And on a weird kind of way, she then ends up coming up with pigments or learns that there are pigments that exist for lipsticks.
And so she's like, I want to try to make lipsticks for black women. And she does. And so she makes these in her little apartment for years, getting her friends, her family, everybody else to try it out. And then suddenly, she has created this company of the lip bar. Now, the interesting thing is, is that she created an initially of course for women of color.
However, other women are finding her lip colors very exciting and very fun. And so she's now in target and such. So yes, it makes sense. And you and I found this so often in different places especially in our coach training school about choose your niche. Yes! Okay. However, do you want to just serve that one or is there more? Is there more that you can do, that you can do to increase the diversity of your client and customers? And I think that the answer for most of us is yes.
But I also think going back to my friend's story, about not being recognized as the safety officer is that we don't, we get locked and loaded in doing certain things over and over again and we forget that we're all middle aged white men sitting around a table and we went to Stanford, Harvard, or Wharton.
Speaker: Lauren LeMunyan 28:09
Yeah. It's like the autopilot of leadership.
Speaker: Wendy Dickinson 28:11
Yeah. You’re so much more.
Speaker: Lauren LeMunyan 28:14
Wake up!
Speaker: Wendy Dickinson 28:15
Yes, yes. There’re people of different types of mobility, there’re people who have different neuro diversity, there are people who are people of color and different cultures and different, all sorts of opportunities that can bring, they can bring their perspectives to your attention.
Speaker: Lauren LeMunyan 28:36
Absolutely. I'm excited about it. In fact, the other day, I had a call with one of my clients as a nonprofit, and they said, we really want to make diversity on our board a top priority. And I said, I'm really happy to hear that because that was one of my concerns about, you know, working with y’all. That you were locked into kind of this this bro code. And I think there is a willingness, I think there is an openness but I don't think people know where to start. I think diversity becomes like their goal, but they don't understand, well, what is a psychologically safe environment look like? What do inclusive environments and cultures look like? What does equity look like?
So, you know, when we started talking about this, this idea for the webinar, you know, this is really the first step of many in a diversity, equity and inclusive process in practice.
Speaker: Wendy Dickinson 29:31
You know Lauren, the other question that I would ask you in looking at the board that you're talking about is, what steps do they feel safe taking? And I think that that's where a lot of people become paralyzed is that when the issue does come to their attention, when they are willing to take a step, they're just not sure which one is safe for me to take. And I think that going back to the me and we, I think that this is where having a webinar and then offering people the opportunity to be involved in safe, guided, inclusive conversations, allow people to look at what steps will they be willing to take? What actions are they willing to take? What beliefs and assumptions are they willing to shift and change?
Yeah. And that goes back to those three questions. Right? So, again, what's the choice? What are the choices? Is there only one step that makes sense to take? When I find my clients engaged in either or thinking, I usually realize that they're way more options than that? How about you?
Speaker: Lauren LeMunyan 30:54
Well, so I always challenged them and I said, so what if we replaced or with and? What would show up? And they're like, wait, what? I can choose? I can create?
Speaker: Wendy Dickinson 31:04
Yeah, yeah, yeah Then that thing of how can I instill purpose in everyday activities? And that's why I think it's so important that we understand that the more inclusive and diverse and equitable that we are able to have that representation around our decision making and design thinking tables, then we have the opportunity to really drive our purpose, our mission, and our vision. Right? So it becomes meaningful work. Even though it's hard to make those changes, even though it's scary to make those changes and a lot of times it challenges are personal identities. And I'm talking about core identity there as well as relational. That, then I feel, then we are challenging people to stay in that discomfort. Right? Getting comfortable with being uncomfortable.
And again, knowing that they're in it for the purpose, for the mission, for the vision and they get to choose what their transitional bridge is. So again, it's the and, not the either or.
Speaker: Lauren LeMunyan 32:21
Yeah. It's so amazing, though, when I work with clients, they have been so trained to follow the binary of it's this or it's this or tell me what I'm supposed to do that when they are given the option of choice, they don't even know what to do with it most times because they haven't felt psychologically safe.
Speaker: Wendy Dickinson 32:43
Yeah, and you know, it's interesting. So our brain’s neurologically, if, this is gonna sound weird but our brains if we can get out of that either or, even if we can just introduce one more option, we have an 80% chance of making a better decision than we would have with either or.
Speaker: Lauren LeMunyan 33:01
It's amazing. So amazing. Well, I'm really excited to do this webinar on the 12th. We have a landing page called @consciouslyprofitable.com that has all that information there. And we're also going to be doing a three part series called inclusive conversations to follow. I think this is really awesome work because we're taking, you know, we're always looking for more studies and more information but this is the first that I've seen that really takes on inclusivity and safety and really puts the practice of like, we're all going to shut it, shut it down and like get to the heart of what makes us uncomfortable and really, like create the space to sit in it and work through it.
Speaker: Wendy Dickinson 33:45
Yeah, I think the webinar is going to offer people some, a framework to begin to think about what practices they could put into place. I think that the inclusive conversations that will happen afterwards is the opportunity to actually practice it before you take it out into the big world.
Speaker: Lauren Lemunyan 34:06
Yeah, like a baby giraffe.
Speaker: Wendy Dickinson 34:08
Yeah. So it’s that opportunity to practice in a safe space before you have to risk your career or risk your reputation or whatever that happens to be.
Speaker: Lauren LeMunyan 34:42
We need to take it beyond the university labs and into the real world. Because things have changed. I mean, things have shifted and the way that people grab information and have access to the real world perspective, that wasn't before. It’s there. Like we cannot, I mean, we can ignore it, but it takes an active practice to ignore what's happening. And it's not just about being complicit than you are actually, like consciously ignoring and denying.
Speaker: Wendy Dickinson 35:16
Absolutely.
Speaker: Lauren LeMunyan 35:17
So we're going to have some hard, hard conversations but necessary conversations.
Speaker: Wendy Dickinson 35:22
And we're going to support people throughout their change.
Speaker: Lauren LeMunyan 35:26
Absolutely. Yeah. We're not going to throw you out there and say okay, go swim in the ocean. There's sharks around you, but you'll be okay. Here's some driftwood,
Speaker: Wendy Dickinson 35:35
No, we're not going to do that to you.
Speaker: Lauren LeMunyan 35:37
No, we're not. We're not. We’re going to give you some floaties. We're going to give you some flare guns and all that fun stuff. I'm really excited about it. Wendy, if people want to learn more about you and your business coaching, where can they go?
Speaker: Wendy Dickinson 35:51
I would suggest they visit my website, Ascend Coaching Solutions. And I'm Wendy Dickinson, and I'm an ICF accredited coach and have been a former business owner who sold the business to a fortune 1000, and have been a therapist and I’m very interested in helping my clients navigate that intersection of life in business. And so I encourage anyone who would like to engage in our conversation to reach out and I hope to see all of your listeners on our webinar.
Speaker: Lauren LeMunyan 36:24
Absolutely. It's free, there's really no excuse. And it's not going to be recorded because we're going to, excuse me. Because we're going to have those hard, I'm going to stop saying hard conversations. We're gonna have the necessary conversations so we want people to feel very free and safe to say what they want to say without people listening to it out of context and things like that. So you have to be there in order to hear us.
Speaker: Wendy Dickinson 36:48
Exactly.
Speaker: Lauren LeMunyan 36:50
Awesome. Well Wendy, thank you so much for spending your time with us and sharing your nuggets of wisdom and being flexible to just roll with it right into the start.
Speaker: Wendy Dickinson 36:59
Well, I appreciate your having me Lauren. As always, I get so much out of every conversation that I have with you. And so again, I look forward to the webinar and see you on the 12th.
Speaker: Lauren LeMunyan 37:10
Awesome. Thanks everybody for all the Spitfires out there, keep being awesome.